I would research a bit more into the 'they should have kept the nuclear weapons' narrative. People will say this with the inference being that they could use this as a deterrence and that they were cajoled into giving them up. That is not the case really.
Everyone knew at the time that Ukraine did not have the infrastructure or ability to maintain the weapons that they were 'left' with. They were also still extremely worried about another issue akin to the Chernobyl disaster -- this was still very fresh in their minds.
Then you have to remember that they would only have been able to use the shorter-range weapons. Russia still had command of the longer-range ICBMs and controlled them.
Even a large portion of the ICBMs were coming up on the end of their service life. Then what would Ukraine do with those, etc.?
The non-proliferation part of it was good for the world for sure. But this is something everyone was striving for at the time as the Soviet Union was being dismantled. Even the USA was creating a bipartisan bill headed up by one of the last decent Democrats, Sam Nunn, to actually help pay for the dismantling and cleanup of the weapons in the former Soviet countries.
Certainly Ukraine knew the Budapest deal was not a binding agreement. They just accepted that along with their own great desire to unburden themselves.
Most of this was known or speculated at the time.
But you can go read all of this in the National Archives release from last year or so that was made public.
The real issues that caused the 'aggression' need to be examined without using the lack of nuclear weapons as a copout of sorts.
The counter argument would be obviously that Ukraine KNEW they did NOT have nuclear weapons now. Etc., etc.
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@yaongingy
I would research a bit more into the 'they should have kept the nuclear weapons' narrative. People will say this with the inference being that they could use this as a deterrence and that they were cajoled into giving them up. That is not the case really.
Everyone knew at the time that Ukraine did not have the infrastructure or ability to maintain the weapons that they were 'left' with. They were also still extremely worried about another issue akin to the Chernobyl disaster -- this was still very fresh in their minds.
Then you have to remember that they would only have been able to use the shorter-range weapons. Russia still had command of the longer-range ICBMs and controlled them.
Even a large portion of the ICBMs were coming up on the end of their service life. Then what would Ukraine do with those, etc.?
The non-proliferation part of it was good for the world for sure. But this is something everyone was striving for at the time as the Soviet Union was being dismantled. Even the USA was creating a bipartisan bill headed up by one of the last decent Democrats, Sam Nunn, to actually help pay for the dismantling and cleanup of the weapons in the former Soviet countries.
Certainly Ukraine knew the Budapest deal was not a binding agreement. They just accepted that along with their own great desire to unburden themselves.
Most of this was known or speculated at the time.
But you can go read all of this in the National Archives release from last year or so that was made public.
The real issues that caused the 'aggression' need to be examined without using the lack of nuclear weapons as a copout of sorts.
The counter argument would be obviously that Ukraine KNEW they did NOT have nuclear weapons now. Etc., etc.
@StumpTownStu its more than grain but thats most likely #1, more ports, more rare earth minerals plus a broader boarder to Nato nations. That last one is so ironic since Putin reason to invade was because Ukraine was asking to join NATO. If successful Putin will have more NATO neighbors and Belarus is in his back pocket so its the whole western front from his perspective Does anyone play chess?
Partly, the NATO thing. I am not dismissing that. But his main contention is that he flat-out says Ukraine is an illegitimate state, especially the parts that he 'wants'. He truly sees those areas as 'independent' areas. And if you have visited those areas, you know there are a lot of Russian-leaning factions there.
You can go back to the Crimean situation and see a direct link to when they ousted the 'pro-Putin' guys.
Yes, then you hear Ukraine wanting to join NATO and Putin, of course, likes a non-NATO buffer area.
But the main reasons for Putin's aggression really have less to do with the NATO thing than the press pushes.
0
@soup-can
Quote Originally Posted by soup-can:
@StumpTownStu its more than grain but thats most likely #1, more ports, more rare earth minerals plus a broader boarder to Nato nations. That last one is so ironic since Putin reason to invade was because Ukraine was asking to join NATO. If successful Putin will have more NATO neighbors and Belarus is in his back pocket so its the whole western front from his perspective Does anyone play chess?
Partly, the NATO thing. I am not dismissing that. But his main contention is that he flat-out says Ukraine is an illegitimate state, especially the parts that he 'wants'. He truly sees those areas as 'independent' areas. And if you have visited those areas, you know there are a lot of Russian-leaning factions there.
You can go back to the Crimean situation and see a direct link to when they ousted the 'pro-Putin' guys.
Yes, then you hear Ukraine wanting to join NATO and Putin, of course, likes a non-NATO buffer area.
But the main reasons for Putin's aggression really have less to do with the NATO thing than the press pushes.
The Clown Show continues inside the politics forum of Covers! As of 1216 pm central today. The top 8 threads are from Lefties who still want the most unqualified American in US Presidential history to be their President! Just a very friendly reminder. 99.95 of the land mass in America is Donald Trump MAGA red! The Left had their arse handed to them on 5 November 2024. Without going into detail. The Dems are still, still counting illegal ballots in certain states to defeat Republican opponents! You can not make that up on your very best day! Before I leave the thread. Please find time and energy to help Bobby and I make our children healthy again! MAGA!
1
The Clown Show continues inside the politics forum of Covers! As of 1216 pm central today. The top 8 threads are from Lefties who still want the most unqualified American in US Presidential history to be their President! Just a very friendly reminder. 99.95 of the land mass in America is Donald Trump MAGA red! The Left had their arse handed to them on 5 November 2024. Without going into detail. The Dems are still, still counting illegal ballots in certain states to defeat Republican opponents! You can not make that up on your very best day! Before I leave the thread. Please find time and energy to help Bobby and I make our children healthy again! MAGA!
The Clown Show continues inside the politics forum of Covers! Can you please put an end and vanquish the very disingenuous and dishonest thread titled 'The biden Presidency...Repairing America Again Did we get back our military equipment back from the Taliban valued at 85B or so USD? Have we repaired the homes in North Carolina destroyed by Hurricane Helene that had Trump signs in their front yard? Total sheet show in the politic forum of Covers! Have a MAGA day and please help Bobby and I make our children healthy again!
1
The Clown Show continues inside the politics forum of Covers! Can you please put an end and vanquish the very disingenuous and dishonest thread titled 'The biden Presidency...Repairing America Again Did we get back our military equipment back from the Taliban valued at 85B or so USD? Have we repaired the homes in North Carolina destroyed by Hurricane Helene that had Trump signs in their front yard? Total sheet show in the politic forum of Covers! Have a MAGA day and please help Bobby and I make our children healthy again!
It¡¯s just hard to comprehend how it¡¯s difficult to at least acknowledge the point that is being made with that statement even if you are a bonafide top notch democrat . It¡¯s like they refuse to even give that declaration sustenance .
BACK PATTING and KISSING threads are like passing HAM SANDWICHES around over and over-wall
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It¡¯s just hard to comprehend how it¡¯s difficult to at least acknowledge the point that is being made with that statement even if you are a bonafide top notch democrat . It¡¯s like they refuse to even give that declaration sustenance .
The Clown Show continues inside the politics forum of Covers! Can you please put an end and vanquish the very disingenuous and dishonest thread titled 'The biden Presidency...Repairing America Again Did we get back our military equipment back from the Taliban valued at 85B or so USD? Have we repaired the homes in North Carolina destroyed by Hurricane Helene that had Trump signs in their front yard? Total sheet show in the politic forum of Covers! Have a MAGA day and please help Bobby and I make our children healthy again!
No disrespect to anyone in North Carolina and their homes as that is/was a terrible mess, but we have our very own COVERS resident in BR that lives in Florida and his home was devastated by a hurricane and when trying to work with FEMA they told him to fuck off because he didn't ;eave the damage in its original state and instead took pictures to show proof of the damage and starting cleaning out his house....
FEMA offered no help which I find kind or ridiculous, but yeah if Ukraine wants aide or weaponry no problem...what kind of message are you trying to send to the American people here....and I don't give two rats asses, which are probably living in BR's house now, if these funds come from different sources....YOU HELP AMERICANS FIRST BEFORE YOU HELP A FOREIGN COUNTRY....you simply place those mutha f'ers on hold and tell them to press 3 for their language.....
Meanwhile, BR's home was a gawd damn river boat without the benefits of being offshore and being able to invite people to gamble in it....I find this to be absurd and rather a disgrace to the American people for all that had devastation due to the hurricanes.....I bet if BR was floating around in a friggen inner tube like little Elian Gonzalez they would have given him aide and prolly bought him a happy meal
COVERS allows u to tell someone they are sexually frustrated so long as ur hands are clean
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Quote Originally Posted by sundance:
The Clown Show continues inside the politics forum of Covers! Can you please put an end and vanquish the very disingenuous and dishonest thread titled 'The biden Presidency...Repairing America Again Did we get back our military equipment back from the Taliban valued at 85B or so USD? Have we repaired the homes in North Carolina destroyed by Hurricane Helene that had Trump signs in their front yard? Total sheet show in the politic forum of Covers! Have a MAGA day and please help Bobby and I make our children healthy again!
No disrespect to anyone in North Carolina and their homes as that is/was a terrible mess, but we have our very own COVERS resident in BR that lives in Florida and his home was devastated by a hurricane and when trying to work with FEMA they told him to fuck off because he didn't ;eave the damage in its original state and instead took pictures to show proof of the damage and starting cleaning out his house....
FEMA offered no help which I find kind or ridiculous, but yeah if Ukraine wants aide or weaponry no problem...what kind of message are you trying to send to the American people here....and I don't give two rats asses, which are probably living in BR's house now, if these funds come from different sources....YOU HELP AMERICANS FIRST BEFORE YOU HELP A FOREIGN COUNTRY....you simply place those mutha f'ers on hold and tell them to press 3 for their language.....
Meanwhile, BR's home was a gawd damn river boat without the benefits of being offshore and being able to invite people to gamble in it....I find this to be absurd and rather a disgrace to the American people for all that had devastation due to the hurricanes.....I bet if BR was floating around in a friggen inner tube like little Elian Gonzalez they would have given him aide and prolly bought him a happy meal
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